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פסחים 78:1
Soncino English Talmud · Berean Standard Bible
— Rather, there is no difficulty: here the reference is to an individual; there [in the Mishnah] the reference is to a community. Shall we say that our Mishnah does not agree with R. Jose? For it was taught, R. Eliezer said: The headplate propitiates for [the defilement of] eatables; R. Jose said: The headplate does not propitiate for [the defilement of] eatables. Now it was assumed: since R. Jose rules, The headplate does not propitiate for [the defilement of] eatables, he agrees with R. Joshua who maintains: We require both. Shall we now say [that] our Mishnah does not agree with R. Jose? — No: R. Jose agrees with R. Eliezer, who maintained: The blood [is fit] even if there is no flesh. If so, in respect of what law [does he rule]: the headplate does not propitiate for [the defilement of] eatables? — Then on your reasoning, when R. Eliezer rules: The headplate does propitiate [for the defilement of eatables], — since he maintains [that] the blood [is fit] even if there is no flesh, in respect of what law [does the headplate propitiate]? — Rather they differ in respect of branding it with [the unfitness of] piggul and excluding it from [the law of] trespass. R. Eliezer holds: The headplate propitiates for it [the defilement of the flesh] and renders it as clean, and so brands it as piggul and excludes it from [the law of] trespass; while R. Jose holds: The headplate does not propitiate for it and does not render it as clean; hence it cannot be branded as piggul, nor does it exclude it from [the law of] trespass. To this R. Mari demurred: Even granted that R. Jose agrees with R. Eliezer: as for sacrifices, It is well, [since] there is blood; as for the ‘omer, there is the handful; [in the case of] the shewbread too there are the censers [of frankincense]. But [in the case of] the two loaves, what can be said? And should you answer, it is in respect of what is offered together with them, then it is tantamount to the public peace-offerings, [and] if so there are [only] four, whereas we learned FIVE? — Rather, R. Jose holds: uncleanness was permitted in the case of a community. But surely it was taught: Both [in the case of] the one and the other, we besprinkle them the whole seven [days] with [the ashes of] all the purification offerings which were there: this is R. Meir's view. R. Jose said: We besprinkle them on the third day and on the seventh day alone. Now if you should think that R. Jose holds, Uncleanness was permitted in the case of a community, why do I need sprinkling at all? Hence it is clear that our Mishnah does not agree with R. Jose. R. Papa said to Abaye: And does R. Jose grant the [Court's] document to two! For it was taught, R. Jose said: I agree with the words of R. Eliezer in respect to meal-offerings and [animal] sacrifices, and with the words of R. Joshua in respect to sacrifices and meal-offering. ‘The words of R. Eliezer in respect to sacrifices,’ for he used to say: The blood [is fit] even if there is no flesh; ‘the words of R. Joshua in respect to sacrifices,’ for he used to say: If there is no blood there is no flesh, if there is no flesh there is no blood. ‘The words of R. Eliezer in respect to meal-offerings, for he used to say: the handful [is fit] even if there is no remainder [fit for consumption]; ‘and the words of R. Joshua in respect to meal-offerings,’ for he used to say: if there is no remainder there is no handful, [and] if there is no handful there is no remainder! Said he to him: He states what appears logical [to him]. [Thus:] when he was studying [the subject of] sacrifices he said: It is logical [that] just as they differ in respect to sacrifices, so do they differ in respect to meal-offerings too. [And] when he was studying [the subject of] meal-offerings he said: It is logical [that] just as they differ in respect to meal-offerings, so do they differ in respect to sacrifices too. Said he to him: It is correct [that] when he was studying [the subject of] sacrifices he said: It is logical [that] just as they differ in respect to sacrifices, so do they differ in respect to meal-offerings too, because the verses [on this matter] are written fundamentally in connection with sacrifices. But when he is studying [the subject of] meal-offerings and he says, It is logical [that] just as they differ in respect to meal-offerings, so do they differ in respect to sacrifices too, — but surely, the verses are fundamentally written in connection with sacrifices! — Rather [explain it thus], there is no difficulty: I agree with the words of R. Eliezer, where it [the flesh] was defiled, and with the words of R. Joshua, where it was lost or burnt. Where it was defiled, what is the reason [that he agrees with R. Eliezer]? Because the headplate propitiates! Surely you know R. Jose to maintain [that] the headplate does not propitiate for [the defilement of] eatables! — Rather [explain it thus], there is no difficulty: I agree with the words of R. Eliezer in the case of the community; I agree with the words of R. Joshua in the case of an individual. In the case of the community, what is the reason [that he agrees with R. Eliezer]? Because uncleanness is permitted in the case of a community? But one [objection] is that you know R. Jose to maintain [that] uncleanness is overridden in the case of a community. Again, if it refers to a community, [does only] R. Eliezer declare it fit, but not R. Joshua?
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