Menachot — Daf 106b

ודלמא כולה חובה היא וכל שהוא ממנו לאישים הרי הוא בבל תקטירו

אמר ר' יהודה בריה דרבי שמעון בן פזי דמסיק להו לשום עצים וכרבי אליעזר דתניא רבי אליעזר אומר (ויקרא ב, יב) לריח ניחוח אי אתה מעלה אבל אתה מעלה לשום עצים

אמר ליה רב אחא בריה דרבא לרב אשי ודלמא דכולי עלמא מותר לערב חובה בנדבה והכא בדרבי אליעזר קא מיפלגי דרבנן אית להו דרבי אליעזר ורבי לית ליה דרבי אליעזר

אמר ליה אי סלקא דעתך לרבי מותר לערב חובה בנדבה ודרבי אליעזר לית ליה אפשר דמייתי שיתין בחד מנא וחד בחד מנא ומגע להו וקמיץ

רבא אמר דכולי עלמא מותר לערב חובה בנדבה ודכולי עלמא אית להו דרבי אליעזר והכא בפלוגתא דרבי אליעזר בן יעקב ורבנן קא מיפלגי

דתנן אפילו מנחה של שישים עשרון נותן לה שישים לוג רבי אליעזר בן יעקב אומר אפילו מנחה של ששים עשרון אין לה אלא לוגה שנאמר (ויקרא יד, כא) למנחה ולוג שמן

רבנן סברי [כרבנן] דאמרי שישים לוג וכל חד וחד עשרון לוגה קא שקיל

ורבי סבר כר' אליעזר בן יעקב דאמר אין לה אלא לוגה ולא ידעינן אי חדא מנחה היא דסגי לה בחד לוג אי שתי מנחות נינהו דבעינן שני לוגין

רב אשי אמר בקטן והביא גדול קמיפלגי רבנן סברי קטן והביא גדול יצא ורבי סבר לא יצא

והא איפלגו בה חדא זמנא דתנן קטן והביא גדול יצא רבי אומר לא יצא

צריכא דאי איתמר בהא בהא קא אמרי רבנן משום דאידי ואידי קומץ הוא אבל התם דקא נפישי אימורין אימא מודו ליה לרבי

ואי איתמר בההיא בההיא קאמר רבי אבל בהא אימא מודי להו לרבנן צריכא

(סימן עצי"ם זה"ב יי"ן עול"ה תוד"ה שו"ר):

מתני׳ הרי עלי עצים לא יפחות משני גזירין לבונה לא יפחות מקומץ

חמשה קמצים הם האומר עלי לבונה לא יפחות מקומץ המנדב מנחה יביא עמה קומץ לבונה המעלה את הקומץ בחוץ חייב שני בזיכין טעונין שני קמצים

הרי עלי זהב לא יפחות מדינר זהב כסף לא יפחות מדינר כסף נחשת לא יפחות ממעה כסף פירשתי ואיני יודע מה פירשתי יהא מביא עד שיאמר לא לכך נתכוונתי:

גמ׳ תנו רבנן (ויקרא ב, א) קרבן מלמד שמתנדבין עצים וכמה שני גזירין וכן הוא אומר (נחמיה י, לה) והגורלות הפלנו על קרבן העצים רבי אומר עצים קרבן הם טעונין מלח וטעונין הגשה

אמר רבא ולדברי רבי עצים טעונין קמיצה אמר רב פפא לדברי רבי עצים צריכין עצים:

לבונה לא יפחות מן הקומץ: מנלן דכתיב (ויקרא ו, ח) והרים ממנו בקומצו מסלת המנחה ומשמנה ואת כל הלבונה מקיש לבונה להרמה דמנחה מה הרמה דמנחה קומץ אף לבונה נמי קומץ:

תנו רבנן הרי עלי למזבח יביא לבונה שאין לך דבר שקרב לגבי מזבח אלא לבונה פירשתי ואיני יודע מה פירשתי יביא מכל דבר שקרב למזבח

ותו ליכא והא איכא עולה איכא עורה לכהנים

והא איכא עולת העוף איכא

perhaps the entire meal-offering was his offering of obligation, and any offering a portion of which had been put on the fire of the altar is subject to the prohibition ye shall not burn?1 — R. Judah son of R. Simeon b. Pazzi replied, It2 is burnt as wood, in accordance with a ruling of R. Eliezer. For it was taught: R. Eliezer says, [It is written,] They shall not come up for a sweet savour on the altar;3 thus ‘for a sweet savour you may not bring it4 up, but you may bring it up as wood. R. Aha the son of Raba said to R. Ashi, Perhaps all hold that it is permitted to mix the offering of obligation with the freewill-offering, but they differ over R. Eliezer's ruling: the Sages accepting R. Eliezer's ruling5 while Rabbi does not accept R. Eliezer's ruling!6 — He replied. If one could say that according to Rabbi it is permitted to mix the offering of obligation with the freewill-offering, and that Rabbi does not accept R. Eliezer's ruling, then he could bring sixty tenths in one vessel and one tenth in another vessel, bring the two into contact, 7 and take the handful from each.8 Raba said, All hold that it is permitted to mix the offering of obligation with the freewill-offering, moreover all accept R. Eliezer's ruling, but they differ on the same principles as those which underlie the dispute between R. Eliezer b. Jacob and the Rabbis. For we have learnt:9 Even a meal-offering of sixty tenths required sixty logs [of oil]. R. Eliezer b. Jacob says. Even a meal-offering of sixty tenths required but one log [of oil], for it is written, For a meal-offering even a log of oil.10 The Sages hold the same view as the Rabbis who11 say that sixty logs are required for sixty tenths, one log for each tenth,12 while Rabbi holds the same view as R. Eliezer b. Jacob who says that only one log is required. and therefore13 we do not know whether to regard [the sixty tenths] as one meal-offering for which one log is sufficient or as two meal-offerings for which two logs are necessary. R. Ashi said, They differ in the case of [one who vowed to bring] a small animal and brought a large one. The Sages hold that [one who vowed to bring] a small animal and brought a large one has fulfilled his obligation.14 while Rabbi holds that he has not fulfilled his obligation. But they have already differed in this matter, for we have learnt: [If he said] ‘a small animal’ and he brought a large one, he has fulfilled his obligation; but Rabbi says, He has not fulfilled his obligation!15 — Both disputes were necessary For if the dispute had only been stated here, I should have said that only here do the Sages say [that by bringing a larger offering he has fulfilled his obligation] since in either case16 only one handful [is offered], but in the other case, since there are more sacrificial portions [in a larger animal]. I might say that they agree with Rabbi [that he has not thereby fulfilled his obligation]. And if the dispute had only been stated there, I should have said that only there does Rabbi say [that he has not fulfilled his obligation, since there are more sacrificial portions], but in this case I might say that he agrees with the Sages; therefore [both disputes] were necessary. (Mnemonic: Wood, Gold, Wine, Burnt-offering, Thank-offering, Ox.)17 MISHNAH. [IF A MAN SAID,] ‘I TAKE UPON MYSELF TO OFFER [PIECES OF] WOOD’, HE MUST BRING NOT LESS THAN TWO LOGS. IF ‘FRANKINCENSE’, HE MUST BRING NOT LESS THAN A HANDFUL. THE HANDFUL IS SPECIFIED IN FIVE CASES: IF A MAN SAID, ‘I TAKE UPON MYSELF TO BRING FRANKINCENSE’. HE MUST BRING NOT LESS THAN A HANDFUL. IF HE OFFERED A MEAL-OFFERING HE MUST BRING A HANDFUL OF FRANKINCENSE WITH IT. IF A MAN OFFERED UP THE HANDFUL OUTSIDE [THE TEMPLE COURT] HE IS LIABLE.18 THE TWO DISHES [OF FRANKINCENSE]19 REQUIRE TWO HANDFULS. [IF A MAN SAID.] ‘I TAKE UPON MYSELF TO OFFER GOLD’, HE MUST BRING NOT LESS THAN A GOLDEN DENAR;20 IF SILVER’, HE MUST BRING NOT LESS THAN A SILVER DENAR; IF ‘COPPER’. HE MUST BRING NOT LESS THAN [THE VALUE OF] A SILVER MA'AH.20 [IF HE SAID.] ‘I SPECIFIED [HOW MUCH I WOULD BRING] BUT I DO NOT KNOW WHAT I SPECIFIED’. HE MUST BRING SO MUCH UNTIL HE SAYS. ‘I CERTAINLY DID NOT INTEND TO GIVE SO MUCH!’ GEMARA. Our Rabbis taught: Offering:21 this signifies that one may offer wood as a freewill-offering. And how much must it be? Two logs. For so it is written, And we cast lots for the offering of wood.22 Rabbi says, The wood-offering is included under the term ‘offering’. and therefore requires salt and also requires to be brought near [the altar].23 Raba said, According to Rabbi's view the handful must be taken from the wood-offering.24 R. Papa said, According to Rabbi's view the wood-offering requires other wood.25 IF ‘FRANKINCENSE’, HE MUST BRING NOT LESS THAN A HANDFUL. How do we know this? — Because it is written, And he shall take up therefrom his handful of the fine flour of the meal-offering and of the oil thereof, and all the frankincense.26 The frankincense is thus compared with the taking up of the meal-offering: as the taking up of the meal-offering was a handful so the frankincense must consist of a handful. Our Rabbis taught: [If a man said,] ‘I take upon myself [to bring an offering] for the altar’, he must bring frankincense, for nothing is offered entirely upon the altar but frankincense. [If he said,] ‘I specified an offering for the altar but I do not know what it was I specified’, he must bring of everything that is offered entirely upon the altar.27 Is there nothing else?28 But what about the burnt-offering? — There is the skin thereof which belongs to the priests. And what about the burnt-offering of a bird? — There are may not be burnt on the altar. How then may the second handful be burnt upon the altar? burnt the first handful, he declares, ‘If this vessel also contains a freewill-offering then this handful is rightly being burnt on its behalf, but if the contents of the vessel are entirely the meal-offering of obligation then this handful is being burnt merely as wood and not as an offering.’ transgressing the prohibition of ye shall not burn. of the other. specified all these tenths for my meal-offering, then this is the handful for it; but if not, let this handful serve for the number of tenths specified for my meal-offering’. Then he would take the handful from the smaller vessel containing the single tenth and declare that it shall serve for the freewill meal-offering of the smaller vessel and also for the remaining tenths of the first vessel; and this would be quite in order, since the two vessels are in contact. As this solution is not put forward by Rabbi it must be that he is of the opinion that it is forbidden to mix in one vessel the meal-offering of obligation with the freewill-offering. the corresponding number of logs of oil, shall serve in fulfilment of his vow, and the remainder shall he a freewill meal-offering. Mishnah) each commencing with the same formula: ‘I take upon myself to offer . only if the entire handful of the meal-offering is offered outside; v. Zeb. 109b. Tosaf, however suggest that the handful spoken of here is not the handful of flour of the meal-offering but one of the handfuls of the two dishes of frankincense, and the ruling here is intended to refute R. Eliezer's view who maintains (Zeb. 110a) that liability is incurred only if the two handfuls of the frankincense were offered outside. Accordingly the expression ‘handful’ in this connection does not exclude an olive's bulk but signifies anything less than the two handfuls. V. Tosaf. s.v. vkgnv. wine-offering, and the meal-offering that is offered with the drink-offerings, for all these can in a less strict sense be described as offered entirely upon the altar; v. infra. The fact that this man specified an offering for the altar, and did not merely say ‘for the altar’, which would have implied frankincense alone, proves that in this case ‘for the altar’ is to be interpreted less strictly and therefore includes the above offerings.