Chullin — Daf 129a

טומאת בית הסתרים היא וטומאת בית הסתרים לא מטמא

אמר ליה אף לדידי קשיא לי ושאילתיה לרבי אבא בר ממל ואמר לי הא מני רבי מאיר היא דאמר טומאת בית הסתרים מטמא

אמר ליה ולאו זימנין סגיאין אמרה קמאי ואמרי ליה שני ליה לר' מאיר בין טומאה דבעיא הכשר ובין טומאה דלא בעיא הכשר

אמר רבא ומאי קושיא דלמא בשהוכשר

אמר ליה רבה בר רב חנן לרבא למה לי הכשר הרי מטמא טומאה חמורה אגב אביו

אמר ליה כששימש מעשה עץ שימש

אמר אביי הרי אמרו כופת שאור שיחדה לישיבה בטלה

טומאתה לאו דאורייתא דאי סלקא דעתך דאורייתא מצינו לאוכלין שמטמאין טומאה חמורה כששימש מעשה עץ שימש

אמר אביי הרי אמרו תקרובת עבודת כוכבים של אוכלין מטמאין באוהל טומאתה לאו דאורייתא דאי סלקא דעתך דאורייתא מצינו לאוכלין שמטמאין טומאה חמורה כששימש מעשה עץ שימש

אמר אביי הרי אמרו חבורי אוכלין ככלים דמו טומאתן לאו דאורייתא דאי סלקא דעתך דאורייתא מצינו לאוכל שמטמא טומאה חמורה כששימש מעשה עץ שימש

א"ל רב פפא לרבא הא דתניא חלב נבלה בכפרים צריך מחשבה והכשר טומאתו אגב כוליא לאו דאורייתא דאי סלקא דעתך דאורייתא מצינו לאוכל שמטמא טומאה חמורה

כששימש מעשה עץ שימש

אמר רב מתנה הרי אמרו בית שסככו בזרעים טהרו טומאתו לאו דאורייתא דאי סלקא דעתך דאורייתא מצינו לזרעים שמטמא טומאה חמורה כששימש מעשה עץ שימש:

ר"ש מטהר:

מה נפשך אי מיתה עושה ניפול ליטמא משום אבר מן החי אי אין מיתה עושה ניפול ליטמא משום אבר מן הנבלה

ר"ש ארישא קאי האבר והבשר המדולדלין בבהמה מטמא טומאת אוכלין במקומן וצריכין הכשר ורבי שמעון מטהר

אמר רבי אסי אמר רבי יוחנן מ"ט דר"ש אמר קרא (ויקרא יא, לד) מכל האוכל אשר יאכל אוכל שאתה יכול להאכילו לאחרים קרוי אוכל אוכל שאי אתה יכול להאכילו

But it had only [made] covert [contact with] uncleanness1 and covert [contact with] uncleanness does not render unclean’? Said the other, ‘I, too, had this difficulty and I put it to R. Abba b. Memel, and he told me that this ruling was in accordance with R. Meir's view who maintains that covert [contact with] Uncleanness does render unclean’. He said: ‘Indeed on many occasions he told me that too, but I replied to him that R. Meir surely made a distinction between that which needed to be rendered susceptible [to uncleanness by a liquid] and that which did not need to be so rendered susceptible’,2 Raba said: But what was the objection, perhaps it was rendered susceptible to uncleanness?3 Whereupon Rabbah son of Hanan asked Raba: Why is it at all necessary that it be rendered susceptible? Originally4 it conveyed the graver uncleanness!5 — He replied. But then it served only as wood.6 Abaye said: Behold they have said7 that if a man especially set aside a lump of leaven to be used as a seat, he has thereby nullified it.8 The uncleanness thereof [I say] is not decreed by the law of the Torah; for should you say it is so by the law of the Torah then we should have a case of foodstuffs being able to convey the graver uncleanness [later on]!9 — [No. Not necessarily so]. For it now serves as wood.10 Abaye said: Behold they have said that foodstuffs used as offerings to idols render unclean [men and vessels that are] in the same tent.11 This uncleanness [I say] is not decreed by the law of the Torah; for should you say it is so by the law of the Torah then we should have a case of foodstuffs being able to convey the graver uncleanness [later on]! — [No. Not necessarily so]. For they now serve as wood.12 Abaye said: Behold they have stated that foodstuffs that adhere closely [to vessels] are like the vessels themselves.13 The uncleanness [in such a case I say] is not decreed by the law of the Torah; for should you say it is so by the law of the Torah then we should have a case of foodstuffs being able to convey the graver uncleanness [later on]! — [No. Not necessarily so]. For they now serve as wood. R. Papa said to Raba: In view of that which has been taught14 viz.: The forbidden fat of a carcass [of a clean animal], in villages,15 needs the intention [to be used as food] and also needs to be made susceptible to uncleanness, [I say] the uncleanness that [the fat] conveys by reason of the kidney within it,16 is not decreed by the law of the Torah; for should you say it is so by the law of the Torah then we should have a case of foodstuffs being able to convey the graver uncleanness!17 — [No, not necessarily so]. For it now serves as wood.18 R. Mattenah said: Behold they have spoken of a house roofed with stalks;19 the uncleanness thereof20 [I say] is not decreed by the law of the Torah; for should you say that it is so by the law of the Torah then we should have a case of stalks conveying the graver uncleanness! — [No, not necessarily so]. For they now serve as wood. R. SIMEON DECLARES IT CLEAN. But whichever view you take [it is difficult]: If at death the limb is considered as already fallen off then it should be unclean as a limb severed from a living animal, and if at death it is not considered as already fallen off then it should be unclean as a limb severed from a carcass! — R. Simeon refers to the first clause [which reads]: LIMBS OR PIECES OF FLESH WHICH HANG LOOSE FROM THE [LIVING] ANIMAL ARE UNCLEAN IN RESPECT OF FOOD UNCLEANNESS WHILST THEY ARE IN THEIR PLACE, AND REQUIRE TO BE RENDERED SUSCEPTIBLE TO UNCLEANNESS. But R. Simeon declares them clean. R. Assi said in the name of R. Johanan. What is the reason for R. Simeon's view? Because Scripture says. All food therein which may be eaten;21 therefore, food which you may give others22 to eat is termed food, but food which you may not give made, and that contact was not exposed. Cf. supra 72b. by water or some other liquid, as is the case here (cf. the Mishnah supra 127a bot.), the covert contact with the uncleanness would not render unclean. Contrast the case stated supra 72b, where the foetus in the womb was already rendered susceptible to uncleanness by the slaughtering of its dam before the unclean protruding limb was cut off. uncleanness, and it is established that whatsoever will convey the graver uncleanness later on does not require to be rendered susceptible to uncleanness by water, v. supra 121a; how much more so this morsel which in the past did convey the graver uncleanness! being severed from the limb that it assumes a new character, viz., that of a foodstuff, and like all foodstuffs it requires moistening in order to be rendered susceptible to uncleanness. 19, for it is no longer a foodstuff but converted into a seat. As a seat it would contract midras uncleanness (which is a grave uncleanness) if a man that has an issue sat upon it. as such can convey the graver uncleanness. Accordingly the uncleanness spoken of can well be by the law of the Torah. as a foodstuff, and it is on all fours with any article that has been worshipped. can render unclean men and vessels. Cf. Pes. 45a, 46a. Tosaf. Nid. 50b s.v. d"k. of the kidney that is inside it; v. supra 126b. quoted, supra 121a. rather as a bone or wood which serves as a protection to the kidney which is nebelah. s.v. u,tnuy. if the house was stricken with a leprous plague, this roof as well as the walls and the rest of the house would be unclean and render men and vessels unclean.