Horayot

According to R. Judah one can well understand these twelve sin offerings to be possible in the case, for example, where the sin was committed by twelve tribes who must bring twelve goats — or again where the sin was committed by seven tribes where others must bring offerings on account of them.  According to R. Simeon, also, this is possible in the case, for example, where the sin was committed by eleven tribes who bring eleven goats, the twelfth  being that of the court, According to R. Meir, however, who said that the court, and not the congregation, bring the sin offering. how could [the bringing of] twelve offerings be possible? — In the case, for instance, where they sinned, and sinned again and again unto the twelfth time. But surely, those who had committed the sin  were dead!  — R. Papa replied: The tradition that a sin offering the owner of which died must be left to die,  is applicable only to the offering  of an individual, but not to that of a congregation — because a congregation does not die. Whence does R. Papa derive this law? If it be suggested, from the Scriptural text, Instead of thy fathers shall be thy sons,  if so, [it may be asked], this should apply to the offering of an individual also! — But R. Papa draws his inference from the goat of the new moon  concerning which the All Merciful said that it was to be brought from the funds of the Temple treasury.  but surely, some of Israel had died,  how then  could those who survived bring [the new moon sin offering]? From this it must consequently be inferred that a sin offering of the congregation — whose owners bad died, may be offered. Are these at all alike? [In the case of] the goat for the new moon it is possible that none of the congregation bad died, but here  [the owners] had certainly died! — R. Papa's proof. however, is derived from here: Because it is written, Forgive, O Lord, thy people Israel, whom thou hast redeemed  [which implies that] this offering is fit to atone even for those who departed from Egypt,  for it is written, Whom thou hast redeemed.  Is this, however, a proper analogy? There  they were all  present, and since [the heifer] atones for the living it may also atone for the dead: here,  however, were there any survivors? — Yes; there were indeed, for it is written, But many of the priests and Levites and heads of fathers' houses etc.  Is it not possible that they  were only a minority  and not a majority?  — Surely it is written, So that the people could not discern the noise of the shout of joy from the noise of the weeping of the people. … and the noise was heard afar off.  Were they not, however, wilful sinners?  — That  was a temporary measure. This  may also be arrived at by reasoning. For should this not be granted, on whose behalf, [it may be asked,] were the ninety and six rams and seventy and seven lambs?  But, [it must be granted, that] it was a temporary measure; in this respect also it must have been a temporary measure. Our Rabbis taught: If one of the congregation died  they are still liable; if one of the court, they are exempt. Who is the author [of this statement]? — R. Hisda, in the name of R. Zera in the name of R. Jeremiah, in the name of Rab, said: It is R. Meir who maintains that the court, and not the congregation, bring the sin offering. Hence, when one of the congregation dies they are still liable since all the members of the court are alive; if, however, one of the court dies they are exempt, because it is then a sin offering one of whose joint owners died; and for this reason they are exempt. R. Joseph demurred: Let this statement be established in accordance with the view of R. Simeon who maintains that the court together with the congregation [bring the sin offering]. Hence, when one of the congregation dies, they are still liable because a congregation does not die;  if one of the court dies they are exempt for the reason given, because it is a sin offering [one] of [whose] joint owners [died]! — Abaye said to him: We have heard R. Simeon say that a sin offering in joint ownership is not to be left to die;  for it was taught, 'If the bullock and the goat of the Day of Atonement were lost and others were set aside in their stead,  all these must be left to die; so R. Judah. R. Eleasar and R. Simeon said: They shall be left to the pasture,  because no congregational sin offering may be left to die.'  — Said R. Joseph to him: Do you speak of priests! Priests are different, because they are called 'congregation'; for it is written, And he shall make atonement for the priests and for all the people of the congregation.