Menachot — Daf 51a

הרי היא כמנחת תמידין

רבא אמר (ויקרא ו, יד) על מחבת מלמד שטעונה כלי ואי אפי לה מאתמול איפסיל ליה בלינה תניא כוותיה דרבא על מחבת מלמד שטעונה כלי

בשמן להוסיף לה שמן ואיני יודע כמה

הריני דן נאמר כאן שמן ונאמר להלן במנחת נסכים שמן מה להלן שלשת לוגין לעשרון אף כאן שלשת לוגין לעשרון

או כלך לדרך זו נאמר כאן שמן ונאמר במנחת נדבה שמן מה להלן לוג אחד אף כאן לוג אחד

נראה למי דומה דנין תבש"ט מתבש"ט תדיר (באה חובה) דוחה שבת דוחה טומאה

ואין דנין תבש"ט משאינו תבש"ט

או כלך לדרך זו דנין יגי"ל מיגי"ל יחיד בגלל עצמה (יין) לבונה

ואין דנין יגי"ל משאינו יגי"ל

רבי ישמעאל בנו של רבי יוחנן בן ברוקה אומר (ויקרא ו, יג) סלת מנחה תמיד הרי היא לך כמנחת תמידין מה מנחת תמידין ג' לוגין לעשרון אף זו ג' לוגין לעשרון

ר"ש אומר ריבה כאן שמן וריבה במנחת כבשים שמן מה להלן שלשת לוגין לעשרון אף כאן שלשת לוגין לעשרון

או כלך לדרך זו ריבה כאן שמן וריבה במנחת פרים ואילים שמן מה להלן שני לוגין לעשרון אף כאן שני לוגין לעשרון

נראה למי דומה דנין מנחה הבאה עשרון ממנחה הבאה בעשרון ואין דנין מנחה הבאה עשרון ממנחה הבאה ב' וג' עשרונים

הא גופא קשיא אמרת בשמן להוסיף לה שמן והדר תני נאמר כאן שמן ונאמר במנחת נדבה שמן

אמר אביי מאן תנא בשמן להוסיף ר"ש היא (ואילו לא נאמר קאמר) ובדינא מאן קא מהדר רבי ישמעאל

רב הונא בריה דרב יהושע אמר כולה ר' ישמעאל בנו של ר' יוחנן בן ברוקה היא

והכי קאמר בשמן להוסיף לה שמן דאי לקבוע שמן לא צריך כיון דכתיב בה (ויקרא ו, יד) על מחבת כמנחת מחבת דמיא

או אינו אלא לקבוע לה שמן דאי לא כתב רחמנא בשמן ה"א תיהוי כמנחת חוטא

הדר אמר תיהוי נמי לקבוע לה שמן תיתי מדינא ודן דינא ולא אתיא ליה ואצרכא קרא סולת מנחה תמיד כדמסיים רבי ישמעאל מילתיה

רבה אמר כולה ר"ש [ואילו לא נאמר קאמר]

וה"ק בשמן להוסיף לה שמן דאי לקבוע לה שמן לא צריך כיון דכתיב בה על מחבת כמחבת דמיא ועד שלא יאמר בשמן יש לי בדין

ודן דינא לא אתיא ליה ואצרכא בשמן הדר אמר תיהוי כמנחת פרים ואילים

הדר אמר דנין

they are thus like the meal-offering which accompanies the Daily Offering.1 Raba said, The expression ‘on a griddle’ implies that they require the use of a vessel of ministry, and [that being so] if they were baked on the day before [the Sabbath] they would be invalid by being kept overnight. 2 There has been taught a Baraitha which coincides with Raba's view. The expression ‘on a griddle’ implies that it3 requires the use of a vessel of ministry. ‘With oil’ signifies that it must have much oil; yet I know not how much, argue therefore as follows: here it is written oil, and there in connection with the meal-offering accompanying the lambs4 [of the Daily Offering] it is also written oil,5 as there it has three logs [of oil] to the tenth so here it must have three logs to the tenth. Or perhaps I should argue thus: here it is written oil and there in connection with the freewill meal-offering it is also written oil,6 as there it has only one log so here it should have only one log! Let us then see to which [of the two] is this case most similar. We may infer a meal-offering which is characterized by T.B.Sh.T.7 — it is offered daily, is an obligation, and overrides the Sabbath and uncleanness — from another meal- offering which is also characterized by T.B.Sh.T, but we may not infer a meal-offering which is T.B.Sh.T. from another which is not T.B.Sh.T. Or perhaps I should argue thus: we may infer a meal-offering which is characterized by Y.G.L.8 — it is an individual offering, brought on its own account, and requires frankincense — from another which is also characterized by Y.G.L., but we may not infer a meal-offering which is Y.G.L. from another which is not Y.G.L.! R. Ishmael the son of R. Johanan b. Beroka [therefore] said, It is written, Of fine flour for a meal-offering daily;9 it is to be similar to the meal-offering which accompanies the Daily Offering; as that meal-offering has three logs of oil to the tenth, this too must have three logs to the tenth. R. Simeon says, Here much oil is required and there also in connection with the meal-offering accompanying the lambs [of the Daily Offering] much oil is required; as there it has three logs to the tenth so here too it must have three logs to the tenth. Or perhaps I should argue thus: here much oil is required, and there also in connection with the meal-offering accompanying the offering of bullocks and rams much oil is required,10 as there it has two logs [of oil] to the tenth so here too it must have two logs to the tenth! Let us then see to which [of the two] is this case most similar. We may infer a meal-offering consisting of one tenth from another meal-offering also consisting of one tenth,11 but we may not infer a meal-offering consisting of one tenth from a meal-offering consisting of two or three tenths. Is not the above passage self-contradictory? It states at first, ‘"With oil" signifies that it must have much oil’, and then it states, ‘Here it is written, ‘"oil", and there in connection with the freewill meal-offering it is also written, "oil"’!12 — Abaye answered,13 The Tanna of the clause, ‘"With oil" signifies that it must have much oil’, is R. Simeon, whilst he that argues otherwise by inference [from the freewill meal-offering] is R. Ishmael. R. Huna the son of R. Joshua said, The whole [of the anonymous part of the Baraitha] is by R. Ishmael the son of R. Johanan b. Beroka, and he argues thus: ‘With oil’ signifies that it must have much oil, for to establish merely that it requires oil no verse would be necessary, since the expression ‘on a griddle’ indicates that it shall be like any meal-offering prepared on a griddle. But perhaps it is not so, but that [‘with oil’] signifies merely that it requires oil, for had not Holy Writ stated ‘with oil’ I might have said that it shall be like the sinner's meal-offering!14 And then he said, Be it even so, that it signifies merely that it requires oil, but surely it can be argued by an inference15 [that three logs are required]. He then argued by the inference15 but could not prove his case;16 whereupon he had to resort to the verse, ‘Of fine flour for a meal-offering daily’, as is expressly stated by R. Ishmael in his concluding remarks. Rabbah said, The whole [of the anonymous part of the Baraitha] is by R. Simeon and he argues thus: ‘With oil’ signifies that it must have much oil, for to establish merely that it requires oil no verse would be necessary since the expression ‘on a griddle’ indicates that it shall be like any meal-offering prepared on a griddle. But even without the expression ‘with oil’ I can arrive at the same conclusion by means of an inference. He thereupon argued by the inference but could not prove his case, so that he had to resort to the expression ‘with oil’. He then said, Let it be similar to the meal-offering accompanying the offering of bullocks or of rams;17 but he rebutted this by saying, We may infer regular daily offering’, c-vcuj vtc ‘is obligatory’, a-,ca and y-vtnuy ‘it overrides the Sabbath and the law of uncleanness’. The meal-offering accompanying the Daily Offering is also characterized in this manner; these features, however, are absent from the freewill meal-offering. following features: h-shjh ‘an individual offering’, d-vnmg kkd ‘brought on its own account’ i.e., not accompanying another offering, and k-vbuck ‘requires frankincense’. These features are present in the freewill meal-offering but are absent from the meal-offering which accompanies the Daily Offering. mingled with the third part of a hin (i.e., four logs) of oil, and that which accompanied the offering of a bullock of three tenths of flour mingled with half a hin (i.e., six logs) of oil. with the bullocks and rams; v. prec. n. required, is contradicted by the verse which indicates the requirement of much oil, i.e., more than the usual quantity. considerably from the present text. V. Sh. Mek. where the text is extensively altered. The above translation is based entirely upon the text as in cur. edd. For the variants v. D.S. a.l. meal-offering which accompanied bullocks or rams where only two logs to the tenth are required.