Menachot — Daf 17a

חריפי דפומבדיתא הקטרה מפגלת הקטרה ואפילו לרבנן דאמרי אין מפגלין בחצי מתיר ה"מ היכא דחישב ביה בשירים ולבונה במילתא קיימא אבל הכא דחישב לה בלבונה כמה דחישב ביה בכוליה מתיר דמי

אמר רבא אף אנן נמי תנינא זה הכלל כל הקומץ ונותן בכלי והמוליך והמקטיר לאכול דבר שדרכו לאכול ולהקטיר דבר שדרכו להקטיר חוץ למקומו פסול ואין בו כרת חוץ לזמנו פגול וחייבין עליו כרת

מאי לאו הקטרה דומיא דהנך מה הנך בין לאכול בין להקטיר אף הקטרה בין לאכול בין להקטיר

לא הנך בין לאכול בין להקטיר הקטרה לאכול אין להקטיר לא

יתיב רב מנשיא בר גדא קמיה דאביי ויתיב וקא אמר משמיה דרב חסדא אין הקטרה מפגלת הקטרה ואפילו לר"מ דאמר מפגלין בחצי מתיר

ה"מ היכא דחישב בהו בשירים דקומץ מתיר דידהו אבל הכא דקומץ לאו מתיר דלבונה הוא לא מצי מפגל ביה

א"ל אביי עני מרי משמיה דרב א"ל אין איתמר נמי אמר רב חסדא אמר רב אין הקטרה מפגלת הקטרה

אמר רב יעקב בר אידי משמיה דאביי אף אנן נמי תנינא שחט אחד מן הכבשים לאכול ממנו למחר הוא פיגול וחבירו כשר לאכול מחבירו למחר שניהם כשרין מ"ט לאו משום דכיון דלאו מתיר דידיה הוא לא מצי מפגל ביה

לא התם הוא דלא איקבע בחד מנא אבל הכא דאיקבע בחד מנא כי חד דמו

אמר רב המנונא הא מילתא אבלע לי רבי חנינא ותקילא לי ככוליה תלמודאי הקטיר קומץ להקטיר לבונה (ולבונה) לאכול שירים למחר פגול

מאי קמ"ל אי הקטרה מפגלת הקטרה קמ"ל לימא הקטיר קומץ להקטיר לבונה אי מפגלין בחצי מתיר קמ"ל לימא הקטיר קומץ לאכול שירים למחר אי תרוייהו (אתא) קמ"ל לימא הקטיר קומץ להקטיר לבונה ולאכול שירים למחר

אמר רב אדא בר אהבה לעולם קסבר אין הקטרה מפגלת הקטרה ואין מפגלין בחצי מתיר ושאני הכא דפשטא ליה מחשבה בכולה מנחה

תני תנא קמיה דרב יצחק בר אבא הקטיר קומץ לאכול שירים לדברי הכל פגול והא מיפלג פליגי אלא אימא לדברי הכל פסול

ולימא ה"ז פגול ור"מ היא תנא דברי הכל אתניוה פיגול בפסול מיחלף ליה הרי זה בדברי הכל לא מיחלף ליה:

הדרן עלך הקומץ את המנחה

מתני׳ הקומץ את המנחה לאכול דבר שאין דרכו לאכול ולהקטיר דבר שאין דרכו להקטיר כשר ר"א פוסל

לאכול דבר שדרכו לאכול ולהקטיר דבר שדרכו להקטיר פחות מכזית כשר לאכול כחצי זית ולהקטיר כחצי זית כשר שאין אכילה והקטרה מצטרפין:

גמ׳ א"ר אסי א"ר יוחנן מ"ט דר"א אמר קרא (ויקרא ז, יח) ואם האכל יאכל מבשר זבח שלמיו בשתי אכילות הכתוב מדבר אחד אכילת אדם ואחד אכילת מזבח לומר לך כשם שמחשבין באכילת אדם כך מחשבין באכילת מזבח

וכשם שמחשבין מאכילת אדם לאכילת אדם ומאכילת מזבח לאכילת מזבח כך מחשבין מאכילת אדם למזבח ומאכילת מזבח לאדם

מ"ט מדאפקינהו רחמנא להקטרה בלשון אכילה

ורבנן האי דאפקינהו רחמנא בלשון אכילה

The keen intellects of Pumbeditha1 said, An intention which makes piggul expressed during one service of burning concerning another service of burning renders the offering piggul.2 And this is so even according to the Rabbis who ruled that an intention which makes piggul expressed during the service of half the mattir does not render piggul, for that is their ruling only in the case where he expressed an intention [which makes piggul] about the remainder [of the meal-offering], the frankincense, however, remaining unaffected; but in this case where he expressed an intention [which makes piggul] about the frankincense, it is as though he had expressed the intention during the service of the whole mattir. Raba said, We have also learnt to the same effect: This is the general rule: If one took the handful or put it into the vessel or brought it nigh, or burnt it, intending to eat a thing that it is usual to eat or to burn a thing that it is usual to burn, outside its proper place, the offering is invalid but the penalty of kareth is not incurred; but if [he intended the like] outside its proper time, the offering is piggul and the penalty of kareth is incurred.3 Now presumably the service of burning is similar to the other [services],4 and as with the others [the intention which makes piggul may be] either concerning the eating [of the remainder] or concerning the burning [of the frankincense], so with the service of burning [the intention which makes piggul may be] either concerning the eating [of the remainder] or concerning the burning [of the frankincense]! — No; with the others the intention may be either concerning the eating or concerning the burning, but with the service of burning the intention can be only concerning the eating but not concerning the burning. R. Menasiah b. Gadda was once sitting before Abaye and recited the following in the name of R. Hisda: An intention which makes piggul expressed during one service of burning concerning another service of burning does not render the offering piggul. And this is so even according to R. Meir who ruled that an intention which makes piggul expressed during the service of half the mattir renders piggul; for that is his ruling only where the intention expressed was concerning the remainder, since it is the handful that renders the remainder permissible; in this case, however, since the handful does not render the frankincense permissible,5 it cannot make the offering piggul.6 Thereupon Abaye said to him, Tell me, Sir, was that [statement] in the name of Rab? He replied, Yes. And it has been so reported: R. Hisda said in the name of Rab, An intention which makes piggul expressed during one service of burning concerning another service of burning does not render the offering piggul. R. Jacob b. Abba7 said in the name of Abaye, We have also learnt the same: IF HE SLAUGHTERED ONE OF THE LAMBS INTENDING TO EAT A PART OF IT ON THE MORROW, THAT [LAMB] IS PIGGUL BUT THE OTHER [LAMB] IS VALID; IF HE INTENDED TO EAT OF THE OTHER [LAMB] ON THE MORROW, BOTH ARE VALID. Now what is the reason?8 It is, is it not, because [the one lamb], not being the mattir of the other, cannot make the offering piggul by reason of an intention concerning [that other]?9 — No, there the reason is because they are not joined in one vessel;10 here, however, since they are joined in the one vessel, they are considered as one.11 R. Hamnuna said, The following was taught me12 by R. Hanina and is equal in worth to me to all my studies: If he burnt the handful intending to burn the frankincense [on the morrow], [and] to13 eat the remainder on the morrow, the offering is piggul. What is it that he teaches us? If he teaches us that an intention which makes piggul expressed during one service of burning concerning another service of burning renders the offering piggul, then he should [only] have said, If he burnt the handful intending to burn the frankincense [on the morrow]. And if he teaches us that an intention which makes piggul expressed during the service of half the mattir renders piggul, then he should have [only] said, If he burnt the handful intending to eat the remainder on the morrow. And if he teaches us both these rules, then he should have said, If he burnt the handful intending to burn the frankincense [on the morrow] and14 to eat the remainder on the morrow! — R. Adda b. Ahabah said, Actually he is of the opinion that an intention which makes piggul expressed during one service of burning concerning another service of burning does not render piggul, and he holds also that an intention which makes piggul expressed during the service of half the mattir does not render piggul, yet in this case it is different since the wrongful intention has spread over the entire meal-offering. 15 A Tanna once recited before R. Isaac b. Abba: If he burnt the handful intending to eat the remainder [on the morrow], all hold it to be piggul. But surely this is a matter of dispute?16 — Rather render: All hold it to be invalid.17 But could he not have corrected himself thus: It is piggul, that is, according to R. Meir? — The Tanna evidently was taught the ruling ‘all hold’, and he confused in his mind ‘piggul’ with ‘invalid’; but he would not confuse ‘it is [piggul]’ with ‘all hold’. 18 MISHNAH. IF HE TOOK THE HANDFUL FROM THE MEAL-OFFERING INTENDING TO EAT19 A THING THAT IT IS NOT USUAL TO EAT20 OR TO BURN19 A THING THAT IT IS NOT USUAL TO BURN,21 THE OFFERING IS VALID; BUT R. ELIEZER DECLARES IT TO BE INVALID. IF HE INTENDED TO EAT19 LESS THAN AN OLIVE'S BULK OF A THING THAT IT IS USUAL TO EAT, OR TO BURN19 LESS THAN AN OLIVE'S BULK OF A THING THAT IT IS USUAL TO BURN, THE OFFERING IS VALID. IF HE INTENDED TO EAT19 A HALF-OLIVE'S BULK AND TO BURN19 A HALF-OLIVE'S BULK, THE OFFERING IS VALID, FOR EATING AND BURNING CANNOT BE RECKONED TOGETHER. GEMARA. R. Assi said in the name of R. Johanan, What is the reason for R. Eliezer s view? Because the verse reads, And if any of the flesh of the sacrifice of his peace-offerings be at all eaten.22 The verse here speaks of two ‘eatings’. the ‘eating’ by man and the ‘eating’ by the altar, to inform you that as there can be a wrongful intention concerning what is usually eaten by man, so there can be a wrongful intention concerning what is usually ‘eaten’ by the altar; and furthermore, as there can be a wrongful intention concerning what is usually eaten by man in regard to man's eating thereof23 and concerning what is usually ‘eaten’ by the altar in regard to the altar's ‘eating’ thereof, so there can be a wrongful intention concerning what is usually eaten by man in regard to the altar's ‘eating’ thereof24 and concerning what is usually ‘eaten’ by the altar in regard to man's eating thereof. And why is this? Because the Divine Law expressed [the burning upon the altar] by the term ‘eating’. And the Rabbis, [what would they say to this]? — The reason why the Divine Law expressed it by the term ‘eating’ was [to teach you] the frankincense on the morrow, the offering is piggul. reason of a piggul intention concerning the latter. therefore one is not affected by the other. The translation in the text is based upon the text and interpretation of Rashi. Maim. apparently included the word vbucku in the text, and the translation would read thus: If he burnt the handful intending to burn the frankincense on the morrow, and (then he burnt) the frankincense intending to eat the remainder on the morrow, the offering is piggul. V. Maim. Yad, Pesule Hamuk. XVI, 8; and also ,ufkv hyuek on Men. a.l. by Israel Meir Hakohen. and render it piggul. the service of half the mattir only. zv hrv ‘it is’ with kfv hrcs’all hold’. of eating. shall be eaten by man beyond the time prescribed for the eating thereof. This intention renders the offering piggul. Similarly the intention that what is usually consumed by the altar shall be burnt upon the altar outside the prescribed time renders the offering piggul. renders the offering piggul.