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חולין 74
Soncino English Talmud · Berean Standard Bible
In such cases there is only the mere precept to keep aloof. R. Joseph was sitting before R. Huna and recited as follows: Rab Judah said in the name of Rab: He who eats this incurs a flogging. Thereupon a certain Rabbi said to him [R. Huna], pay no attention to him [R. Joseph], for thus said R. Isaac b. Samuel b. Martha in the name of Rab: He who eats it does not incur a flogging. R. Huna then said, upon whom should we rely? Thereupon R. Joseph turned his face away [in anger] and remarked: What is the difficulty? I was speaking of the death [of the animal] when the limb is accounted as detached, but he was speaking of the slaughtering when the limb is not accounted as detached. Raba said: Whence is derived the rule of the Rabbis that at death a loose limb is accounted as detached and at the slaughtering it is not accounted as detached? From the verse. And upon whatsoever any of them, when they are dead, doth fall, it shall be unclean. Now what does this verse exclude? Should you say it excludes [creeping things] whilst they are alive, but these are expressly excluded by the words ‘of their carcass’! It clearly teaches that at death the limb is accounted as detached but not at the slaughtering. R. Adda b. Ahaba said to the Raba, But the verse deals with creeping things? — He replied: Since it serves no purpose in the case of creeping things to which slaughtering does not apply, you may refer it to cattle. But it is indeed necessary [with regard to creeping things to teach] that they must be ‘as at death’, that is, they convey uncleanness only when moist but not when dry. — The expression, ‘when they are dead’, occurs twice. R. Hisda said: They differ only with regard to the limb of a live foetus, but with regard to the limb of a dead foetus all agree that at the slaughtering the limb is accounted as detached. Rabbah however said: As they differ in the one case so they differ in the other also. THE SLAUGHTERING OF A LIVE EIGHT MONTHS’ BIRTH . . . [FOR TO ITS KIND SLAUGHTERING DOES NOT APPLY]. But has it not been taught: The slaughtering of a live eight months’ birth could prove [otherwise], for even though slaughtering applies to its kind, the slaughtering does not render it clean? — R. Kahana answered, [It means that] through its dam slaughtering applies to its kind. And our Tanna? — He does not consider as a refutation [the fact that slaughtering applies to it] through its dam. But that Tanna who does consider this a refutation, whence does he derive the rule that the slaughtering of a trefah [animal] renders it clean? — He derives it from the exposition of Rab Judah in the name of Rab. For Rab Judah said in the name of Rab, (others say: It was so taught in a Baraitha), It is written: And if there dieth of the beasts, [he that toucheth the carcass thereof shall be unclean,] that is to say, some of the beasts convey uncleanness and some do not, and which are they? They are trefah [animals] which have been slaughtered. R. Hoshaia raised this question, What is the law if a person put his hand into an animal's womb and slaughtered therein a living nine months’ foetus? This can be asked according to R. Meir's view and also according to the Sages’ view. According to R. Meir the question is this, perhaps when R. Meir contended that an animal which was extracted [alive from the womb] must itself be slaughtered he referred only to an animal which came forth [alive] into the world, but whilst within the womb of its dam the slaughtering of it would not render it permitted. And on the other hand, perhaps [it is permitted] even according to the view of Rabbis, for the Divine Law permits [the foetus] by [the slaughtering of any two out of] four organs! — R. Hananiah said: Come and hear. [We have learnt:] WHENCE WOULD WE KNOW THIS OF AN ANIMAL THAT WAS BORN TREFAH FROM THE WOMB? Now if it can be said [that the slaughtering of the foetus in its dam's womb renders it valid], then this also had a time when it was fit [for slaughtering], for a man might put his hand into the womb and slaughter it there [before it was rendered trefah]! — Raba said to him, Render: ‘an animal that was formed trefah from the womb’, and this would be the case when, e.g., it has five legs. MISHNAH. IF A MAN SLAUGHTERED AN ANIMAL AND FOUND IN IT AN EIGHT MONTHS FOETUS, EITHER LIVING OR DEAD, OR A DEAD NINE MONTHS FOETUS, HE NEED ONLY TEAR IT OPEN AND LET THE BLOOD FLOW OUT. IF HE FOUND IN IT A LIVING NINE MONTHS’ FOETUS IT MUST BE SLAUGHTERED, AND HE WOULD THEREBY INCUR THE PENALTY FOR [INFRINGING THE LAW OF] ‘IT AND ITS YOUNG’: SO R. MEIR. BUT THE SAGES SAY, THE SLAUGHTERING OF ITS DAM RENDERS IT PERMITTED.24
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R. SIMEON SHEZURI SAYS: EVEN IF IT IS FIVE YEARS OLD AND IS PLOUGHING THE FIELD, THE SLAUGHTERING OF ITS DAM RENDERS IT PERMITTED. IF HE RIPPED OPEN THE DAM AND FOUND IN IT A LIVING NINE MONTHS FOETUS, IT MUST BE SLAUGHTERED, SINCE ITS DAM HAS NOT BEEN SLAUGHTERED. GEMARA. R. Eleazar said in the name of R. Oshaia: They argued about it [the foetus] only with regard to slaughtering. What does this exclude? — It excludes the fat and the [sciatic] nerve. What fat is meant? Is it the fat of the foetus? But is there not a dispute with regard to it? For it was taught: The law of the sciatic nerve applies also to a foetus, and the fat [of the foetus] is forbidden: so R. Meir. R. Judah says: It does not apply to a foetus, and the fat [of the foetus] is permitted. And R. Eleazar had said in the name of R. Oshaia that their dispute referred to a living nine months’ foetus, R. Meir ruling according to his principle and R. Judah according to his! And if it means the fat of the [sciatic] nerve, but is there not also a dispute about it? For it was taught: One must trace the sciatic nerve as far as it goes and must cut away the fat thereof at its roots: so R. Meir. R. Judah says: One need only peel off the [fat at the] top [of the hip-bone]! — If indeed it was reported, it must have been reported as follows: R. Eleazar said in the name of R. Oshaia: They argued about it only with regard to the matters that affect the eating thereof, thus excluding the prohibitions of interbreeding and ploughing with it. R. Simeon b. Lakish said: He who permits the fat [of the foetus] permits its blood, and he who forbids its fat forbids its blood. R. Johanan says: Even he who permits its fat forbids its blood. R. Johanan raised this objection against R. Simeon b. Lakish: We have learnt: HE NEED ONLY TEAR IT OPEN AND LET THE BLOOD FLOW OUT! — R. Zera said: He [R. Simeon b. Lakish] only meant to say that one would not be liable to the penalty of Kareth. Whose view are we considering? R. Judah's, are we not? But let it be accounted no more than the blood that oozes out; has it not been taught: With regard to the blood that oozes [out of the animal after the slaughtering] there is only a formal prohibition; R. Judah says: There is the penalty of Kareth? — R. Joseph, the son of R. Salla the pious, explained it in the presence of R. Papa: R. Judah interprets the expressions, ‘blood’ and no manner of blood; hence, whenever one would be liable [to the penalty of Kareth] for the life blood one would also be liable for the blood that oozes out, and whenever one would not be liable for the life blood one would not be liable for the blood that oozes out. The question was raised: May one redeem [the firstling of an ass] with a lamb extracted [out of the ewe's womb]? According to R. Meir's view there is no question at all; for since he declares that it must be slaughtered, it is obviously an ordinary lamb. The question only arises according to the view of the Rabbis who maintain that the slaughtering of its dam renders it clean. Now what is the law? Since they maintain that the slaughtering of its dam renders it clean, it is to be regarded as meat in a basket, is it not? Or [shall we say] since it runs to and fro, we apply to it the term lamb? — Mar Zutra says: We may not redeem with it; R. Ashi says: We may. R. Ashi said to Mar Zutra, ‘How do you arrive at your view? You no doubt deduce it from the word ‘lamb’ used here and also in the verse dealing with the paschal lamb; then it should follow, just as there the lamb must be a male, without blemish, of the first year, so here too it must be a male, without blemish, of the first year’. [Mar Zutra replied,] ‘The repetition of: Thou shalt redeem, extends the scope of the law’. [Said R. Ashi] ‘If, as you say, namely, that the repetition of, ‘Thou shalt redeem’, extends the scope of the law, then everything [should be allowed]’. [Mar Zutra replied:] ‘If that were so, of what use to you is the inference made by the term lamb’? The question was raised: Do we reckon here the first and second degree of uncleanness or not? R. Johanan said: We do reckon here the first and second degree of uncleanness; R. Simeon b. Lakish said: We do not reckon here the first and second degree of uncleanness, for it is regarded as a nut that rattles in its shell. R. Simeon b. Lakish raised this objection against R. Johanan. We have learnt: The flesh is unclean like that which had touched nebelah: so R. Meir. But the Sages say: It is unclean like that which had touched a slaughtered trefah [animal]. Now according to my view that they [the foetus and the dam] are one body, it is clear, for it [the foetus] was rendered susceptible [to contract uncleanness] by the blood of its dam; but according to you [it will be asked:] whereby was it rendered susceptible to uncleanness? — He replied: By the slaughtering, and it is in accordance with R. Simeon's view. R. Johanan raised this objection against R. Simeon b. Lakish. If it waded through a river it has thereby become susceptible to uncleanness, and if it next passed through a cemetery it has thereby become unclean. Now according to my view that they are two separate beings, it is clear that only if it had thus become susceptible to uncleanness [by passing through a river] it becomes [unclean], but if it had not thus become susceptible to uncleanness it is not [unclean]. But according to your view that they are one body [it is difficult, for surely] it had long ago become susceptible to uncleanness by the blood of its dam! —
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