Chullin — Daf 72a

והא עובר וחיה דכשתי טבעות דמו וקא מטמא לה עובר לחיה

אמר רבה שאני עובר הואיל וסופו לצאת אמר רבא עובר סופו לצאת טבעת אין סופו לצאת אלא אמר רבא פומבדיתאי ידעי טעמא דהא מילתא ומנו רב יוסף

דאמר רב יוסף אמר רב יהודה אמר שמואל טומאה זו אינה מדברי תורה אלא מדברי סופרים מאי אינה מדברי תורה אלא מדברי סופרים דלא תימא אליבא דר' עקיבא דאמר עובר במעי אשה טמא אלא אפי' לר' ישמעאל דאמר עובר במעי אשה טהור גזרו בה טומאה מדרבנן

מאי טעמא אמר רב הושעיא גזירה שמא יוציא ולד ראשו חוץ לפרוזדור

אי הכי אשה נמי אשה מרגשת בעצמה ותימא לה לחיה טרידא

מאי ר' ישמעאל ומאי ר"ע דתניא (במדבר יט, טז) וכל אשר יגע על פני השדה להוציא עובר במעי אשה דברי ר' ישמעאל ר"ע אומר לרבות גולל ודופק

ור' ישמעאל גולל ודופק הלכתא גמירי לה ור"ע עובר במעי אשה טמא מדאורייתא מנא ליה אמר ר' אושעיא אמר קרא (במדבר יט, יג) הנוגע במת בנפש איזהו מת שבנפש של אדם הוי אומר זה עובר שבמעי אשה

ור' ישמעאל האי מיבעי ליה לרביעית דם הבאה מן המת שמטמאה שנאמר הנוגע במת בנפש האדם איזהו נפש של אדם שמטמא הוי אומר זו רביעית דם

ור"ע לטעמיה דאמר אף רביעית דם הבא משני מתים מטמא באהל דתניא ר"ע אומר מנין לרביעית דם הבאה משני מתים שמטמאה באהל

שנא' (ויקרא כא, יא) ועל כל נפשות מת לא יבא שתי נפשות ושיעור אחד:

מתני׳ בהמה המקשה לילד והוציא עובר את ידו וחתכה ואח"כ שחט את אמו הבשר טהור שחט את אמו ואח"כ חתכה הבשר מגע נבלה דברי ר"מ

וחכמים אומרים מגע טרפה שחוטה

But is not the case of the foetus and the midwife [of our Mishnah] similar to two rings,1 nevertheless the foetus renders the midwife unclean? — Rabbah replied,2 It is different in the case of the foetus because it must eventually come out!3 Raba retorted: The foetus, [you say] must eventually come out; and must not the ring also eventually come out? — Raba therefore replied: The ‘Pumbedithans’ (by which R. Joseph is meant) know the reason for it. For R. Joseph said in the name of Rab Judah who said it in the name of Samuel: This uncleanness [of the midwife] was not imposed by Biblical law but by decree of the Scribes. Why is it said ‘was not imposed by Biblical law but by decree of the Scribes’? — So that you should not say that our Mishnah agrees [only] with R. Akiba who holds that a [dead] foetus whilst yet in the womb of its mother is unclean;4 for indeed it is even in accordance with R. Ishmael who holds that the [dead] foetus whilst yet in the womb of its mother is clean, yet here the uncleanness [to the midwife] was imposed by Rabbinic decree. Why? — R. Hoshaia said: As a precaution lest the foetus protrude its head beyond the ante-chamber.5 Then this should apply to the mother too!6 — The mother would feel it.7 Then she might tell the midwife of it?8 — She is too distraught. Where do we find the respective views of R. Ishmael and R. Akiba? — It was taught: The verse: And whosoever toucheth in the open field . . . [a dead body],9 excludes the dead foetus whilst yet in the womb of its mother:10 so R. Ishmael. R. Akiba says: It includes the stone that covers the grave and the stones that support it.11 And R. Ishmael? — The [uncleanness of the] covering stone and supporting stones is established by tradition.12 And R. Akiba? — He maintains that the [dead] foetus whilst yet in the womb of its mother is unclean.13 Whence does he [R. Akiba] derive this14 from the Torah? — R. Oshaia answered: It is written: Whosoever toucheth a dead body in a human body.15 Now what can a dead body in a human body refer to? You must say it refers to a [dead] foetus in the womb of its mother. And R. Ishmael?16 — He requires this verse to establish the law that a quarter log of blood that issued from a dead body conveys uncleanness. For it is written: Whosoever toucheth a dead body [or] the life element of man.17 Now what is the life element of a man that renders unclean? You must say, it is a quarter log of blood.18 R. Akiba, on the other hand, adheres to his view that a quarter log of blood that issued from two corpses will render unclean [men and vessels that are] in the tent.19 For it was taught: R. Akiba says: Whence do I know that a quarter log of blood that issued from two corpses renders unclean [men and vessels that are] in the tent? From the verse: He shall not go in to any dead bodies,20 which suggests one quantity [of blood] from two corpses. MISHNAH. IF AN ANIMAL WAS IN DIFFICULT LABOUR AND THE FOETUS PUT FORTH ITS FORE-LIMB AND A PERSON IMMEDIATELY CUT IF OFF AND THEN SLAUGHTERED THE DAM, THE FLESH [OF THE FOETUS]21 IS CLEAN. IF HE SLAUGHTERED THE DAM FIRST AND THEN CUT IF OFF, THE FLESH22 IS UNCLEAN LIKE THAT WHICH HAD TOUCHED NEBELAH: SO R. MEIR. BUT THE SAGES SAY, IT IS UNCLEAN23 LIKE THAT WHICH HAD TOUCHED A SLAUGHTERED TREFAH [ANIMAL];24 unclean matter can convey uncleanness; the mother, however, remains clean because the uncleanness touches her in her secret parts and this does not render her unclean. protrusion of its head regarded as born. of the foetus. and epus. According to Rashi, the former means the upper board and the latter the side boards of the coffin. The translation in the text follows the interpretation of these terms suggested by Tosaf. V. Keth. 4b s.v. sg; and Nazir, Sonc. ed., p. 202, n. 5. accounts for the uncleanness of the covering stone and supporting stones. tradition he derives it expressly from the above verse. ‘body’. the life element in man; cf. Lev. XVII, 14, Deut. XII, 23. for maintaining life in a human being. Log is a liquid measure equal to the capacity of six eggs. indicates a single quantity of blood equal to the quantity necessary for maintaining life, i.e., a quarter log. animal and it is established law that a living animal cannot contract uncleanness. V. supra 68a bot.